In this week’s Success Newsletter, I would like to discuss immature men, how to identify them and why they are so damaging and harmful.
First a quick update:
Now, let’s talk about the definition of an immature man.
A few months ago, a reporter from The National Enquirer interviewed me for my comments and opinion on the relationship between actor Patrick Stewart and his new girlfriend jazz singer, Sunny Ozell. Patrick Stewart is 68 and Sunny, at age 31, is five years younger than Stewart’s daughter, Sophie, 36. My response was that when there is an age difference as big as 37 years (or 41 years as is the case with Rolling Stone’s Ron Wood and his 20 year old girlfriend Ekaterina Ivanova or 45 years as is the case with Morgan Freeman and his girlfriend, his 27 year old step granddaughter E’Dena Hines) then this signifies that the man hasn’t matured and he is still stuck in the dark side of the hero phase – he is still behaving like a boy.
This behavior is equivalent to adolescence or ego. It is akin to the fairy tale where the young prince or knight saves and wins the damsel but the story ends there; he is after all, a young prince or knight, we never see him mature (evolve) to be a king. Is that because he does not know what to do with her and maybe does not know himself beyond being a prince or knight – he never looks deeper into his own masculine self? The fairy tale suggests that the relationship between the prince and damsel is simply infatuation and there is no deeper connection or evolution; it is simply artificial or superficial love. Both prince and damsel also stay young forever – a symbol or metaphor that they also do not evolve.
Unfortunately, the fairy tale hero story sets us up to believe that our only goal is to conquer, to win and rescue and thus, it sets up as the ideal, the stuck hero.
The stuck hero endlessly feeds his need to conquer and control, severing relationships along the way, naïve and drunk in the illusion that there are no limits, he can do anything. He becomes patriarchal, aggressive, but not wise; stepping on others to serve his own needs instead of using his power to help, protect and serve others.
The self-serving hero phase represents an aggressive stage in life filled with the desire for selfish conquest and triumph; the desire to amass trophies – possessions and things only for one-self.
Recently, I witnessed something similar with a 40 year old man who has a serious girlfriend but still focuses on physically conquering other women; yes he cheats on her. And when he wins them, he doesn’t know what to do with them, so the relationship or connection remains only on a superficial level. Worse still, he judges women purely on their exterior physical appearance and throws them to the garbage heap when they are over 30 or not physically perfect.
The above examples represent immaturity in a man: he stays stuck as a boy, failing or unable to evolve into manhood.
What is maturity?
The dictionary defines mature as “fully developed in body and mind.”
So what does it mean to be fully developed in “mind”?
Interestingly, the greatest gender difference in men and women is obviously the hormonal makeup with Testosterone creating aggression, competitiveness, and the urge to dominate.
Professor Steven Goldberg, Chairman of the Department of Sociology at City College of New York, in his provocative book, “Why Men Rule–A Theory of Male Dominance”, claims men and women are different due to their hormonally-driven behavior. Professor Goldberg argues that the high level of testosterone in males drives them toward dominance in the world, while the lack of high levels of this hormone in women creates a natural, biological push in the direction of less dominant and more nurturing roles in society.
However, the evolution and maturation of a male involves growing to a phase where a man thinks beyond dominance, grandiosity and patriarchy; a man who thinks outside of himself and his own desires. Thus, the next phase would be that of service and purpose. In other words, the man has a clearly defined purpose in life that includes making a difference in the world – giving and serving rather than simply taking and amassing.
Robert Moore PhD and Douglas Gillette in their book, “King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine” say that the world is full of boys pretending and playing to be men.
Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette believe that mature masculinity is not abusive, domineering, or grandiose, but generative, creative, and empowering of the self and others.
They distinguish between the immature masculine – boy psychology and the mature masculine – man psychology. They list the four immature archetypes as:
- Divine Child – the boy that believes he has divine rights and everyone should bow to his whims
- Oedipal Child – the son that is mother-fixated
- Precocious Child –
- Hero – aggressive, conquering and controlling without purpose
The immature boy phase is summed up as someone that stays stuck in the adolescent phase, still bound to his parents (often the mother), does not have or know his own identity, does not trust himself or life, remains rebellious, unable to adjust to any of society’s norms or values, and, lacking in a competent or secure ego.
The result is immature men whom:
- - Cannot form real and meaningful relationships
- - Cannot communicate and nurture relationships with family, friends and colleagues
- - Haven’t severed the bonds of the mother complex
- - Can have a child but run from the responsibility of being a father and raising their children
- - Don’t focus on solutions
- - Move through life lost and confused, without meaning or purpose
- - Live only for their own ego and pleasure – often becoming narcissistic
- - Thrive on showing off their power, impressing others, acting superior and dominating others or the opposite – acting cowardly and weak, reluctant to stand up for themselves
- - Become obsessed with dating young women
In their book, Robert Moore PhD and Douglas Gillette define the four archetypes of mature masculinity:
- King – the organizer – the energy of just and creative ordering
- Warrior – aggressiveness – the energy of self-disciplined, aggressive action
- Magician – knowledge – the energy of initiation and transformation
- Lover – feeling – the energy that connects men to others and the world
Moore and Gillette believe the developmental history of every man is, in large part, the story of his failure or success at discovering within himself the archetypes of mature masculinity.
The failure for men to mature creates many problems for society: broken relationships, divorces, violence, fatherless children, narcissism, rising teen pregnancies, etc (listen to the interview I gave on the negative impact of bad parenting) But immature men also pose an equally great challenge for women who try to change the immature man. As I point out in my book, “Get the man you want”, women fall in love not with who the man is but rather who he could be with their help; they fall in love with the man’s potential. The block is most men don’t want to change, can’t see the need to change and resist change (particularly when asked to change – a response of the male ego.)
Parents can help boys to mature to manhood by noting the insights of John Welch from his book, “The Carmelite Way”:
“What damages a boy’s development is a lack of response to his attachment needs, or the use of threats of abandonment, or inducing guilt in the boy, or parental clinging to the child. Potentially the most disastrous occurrence for the developing child is the loss of parents or the loss of caring adults.”
The key is to assist him into moving away from the parents and into his own identity and adult life.
I always teach that the best steps we can take to improve our lives and even the world around us begins with ourselves. Listen to my audio book that dating expert Whitney Casey praises for empowering women: “Get the man you want”
http://patrickwanis.com/GetTheManYouWant.asp
If you would like to comment on this newsletter, go to www.patrickwanis.com/blog if you have received this newsletter as a forward and would like to receive all of my newsletters please enter your email address on the home page at PatrickWanis.com.
I wish you the best and remind you “Believe in yourself -You deserve the best!”
Patrick Wanis Ph.D.
Celebrity Life Coach, Human Behavior & Relationship Expert & Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.patrickwanis.com
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AHA! So what do you recommend for a woman in a relationship with an immature man? Do we just walk away? I’m not your mommy – your mommy will always love you but I won’t – you have to grow up!
If women fall in love with a man’s potential and he’s not living his potential and we can’t call him on his potential – how will the man ever grow up WITHIN a relationship? WITHIN a Marriage – WITHIN a father-child relationship.
We need to develop a HABIT of talking to our men where they can GLADLY receive feedback and not take it personally or attacking their ego – but simply receive our feedback as a necessary part of their maturity.
How do men get called on their immaturity? Past Presidents got away with a lot of immaturity and no-one called them on anything either!
How do WOMEN have a voice – that is BOTH gentle and firm – to teach men – we ALL have to GROW UP!!!
Dear Angela,
my first recommendation is to avoid dating, marrying or committing to a man or anyone that is immature. Once you are in the relationship, though, your options and responses change:
You can leave the relationship, stay in it and do nothing or, work towards insipring him to change.
My point is do not enter the relationship excited about how you are going to make him a big, succesful man with your help.
Once you are in a relationship, I think it is your duty to point out to him what he is doing – to give him “feedback.”
You are not responsible for his maturation. You can, though, make suggestions about steps he can take – resolving relationships with family or receiving the necessary professional help to mature (resolve past issues.)
Let me also say that men only change and act when they truly need to; in some cases men only decide to change when the woman walks out. This happened with a client of mine: When his wife announced she was leaving, he said, “I will change” and she said “It’s too late. Why didn’t you do it for the past 3 years when i was asking?” He did change and has spent the past 12 months trying to get her back. he has taken charge of his physical health, worked on releasing his anger and resolving other painful issues. He began to mature when he was forced to do so, when he lost the things he loves.
I also congratulate you for summing it up that women need to have a gentle and firm voice to tell men that it is time to grow up.
Also, I received an email from another reader:
“Hi Patrick, very interesting commentary on immature men. I’ve heard other theories that state people select their mates based on them being at the same emotional or maturity level. I’m not sure I believe it entirely but the fact that these couples are together makes some case for that. I’d love to hear further comments on the sort-of determinism that the ‘matching emotional levels’ theory seems to dictate. Obviously, based on your commentary if everything else was equal and one person was more mature then they would be the better choice for a significant other but that’s rare or impossible.”
While I won’t respond in detail right now, the email above raises the question “Are you more mature than him?” And, what attracted you to him? Did you see the signs of immaturity earlier on and simply ignore them?
You wrote: “we ALL have to GROW UP!!!” and I believe that also means accepting that there are times we must take tough, uncomfortable action – be it speak up to him or leave him.
All the best,
Patrick
Seriously good stuff!! This is such important information that never gets acknowledged. Unfortunately, we don’t learn the critically important things in our school system (including college) and this needs to change!
In an ideal situation, I would advocate a life cycle psychology workshop or class in every grade through college that would include self esteem, self worth, emotional resilience, relationships, parenting, etc. The school system probably couldn’t handle this curriculum as it probably would have a lot of kids opening up to pain and crises and parents complaining when their kids blame it on them lol. But at the same time, adults are not being taught essential life skills.
Now I have questions…there was an illuminating interview that Patrick did that was about the influence of fathers on daughters. It’s interesting that for the son here you mention about the mother, and not being able to unbind from the ties to the mother… so is the mother more important than the father for the development of the son? Is it because he’s going to base his future relationships with women based on his relationship with his mother?
See, I always thought personally that the father is really the cornerstone of a family and when he’s dysfunctional, the whole family suffers with emotional insecurities: a son doesn’t know how to be a man, a daughter doesn’t feel like she’s getting the security of having a man care about her (so she looks for someone to be her sugardaddy), and the wife feels like her needs are not being taken care of either and that the stress of the home is on her. I’m not blaming the father for everyone’s problems, but I really feel like that a man/father has such an important role like the elder of a tribe would have. Ideally, he makes us feel provided for and safe. He’s supposed to be the problem solver and protector.
There will be people who will say that’s stereotyping, but the proof of how families are broken speaks for itself…especially with the growing popularity of having single moms…I can only imagine the ripple effects that’s going to cause in the next generation of adult men and women….
In any event, this article highlights this fact and that marriage doesn’t “complete” people as much as that propaganda sounds romantic. You have to be a complete person before you get in a serious relationship.
Patrick,
Your article was spot on. I always kind of suspected the things you wrote about but never saw it written so elegantly and simple for all to understand. Judging from the previous comments, I see that your article brought out many related emotional issues for other readers as well.
Besides addressing their concerns, I would really love to see you write a future article about any possible connection between the immature male and violence. Could this be the reason why the rates of physical violence among men are so high?
By the way, with my question I’m not trying to imply that women are not violent as well. But I think most readers will agree, that despite the potential for either gender to be violent, the rates of violence are still overwhelming highest for men all around the world, regardless of culture. I would love to see a future article addressing this and it’s possible connection to the immature male.
Thanks and all the best to you as well! JR
Dear Jennifer,
I briefly mentioned in my Newsletter that there is a link between immature men and violence but did not explain why. Immature men focus on dominance, grandiosity, patriarchy and agression – without meaningful purpose. In other words, they do not use their power to protect and serve but rather focus on conquering for the sake of conquering. Violence and agression amongst men can also be traced back to a lack of a suitable male role model, an absent father, a poor relationship with a father, and unresolved anger and resentment towards the mother-figure.
My friend and colleague Aaron Huey http://www.firemountainprograms.com will tell you that he believes children also act violently when they have not had a proper transition to manhood and womanhood i.e. if they don’t have a ritual of conquering themselves they will create their own – but it is usually acted out on others – think of the many teen beatings and the college fraternity initiation rituals.
All the best,
Patrick
Patrick,
As Sunny Ozell’s ex boyfriend (yes for real) I can tell you that she’s already been to therapy over Patrick Stewart, they’ve dated for years (she was his NY based mistress as far back as 2005) and their relationship is a mutually beneficial, but totally superficial relationship. Sunny is in fact *not* a jazz singer – she’s a waitress who performs once or twice a year to a small venue singing covers of jazz tunes – she is not signed to a label nor does she have an album of original songs. In her struggling poverty she’s indeed found a “white knight” who will introduce her to famous people and fund both of their ego’s with no end in sight – that is until the sobering reality hits them – which I doubt will happen as long as it remains a long distance relationship (she in Brooklyn, he in England) with a “do what you want” attitude while they’re apart. Without the actual responsibility of a real relationship, they can maintain the fantasy as long as they wish without ever reaching true adulthood. I say this, because that was my realization with my own relationship with Ozell and prompted me to sever the relationship and seek someone who was truly interested in an honest warts-and-all commitment.
Real life – an honest life (especially honesty within) is not an easy thing as the inner child cries for the drug of constant conquest and affirmation, but kudos to you for pointing out that living in reality and evolving to maturity offers a more fulfilling and lasting joy.
I shudder to think what Stewart’s own family thinks of the relationship – I honestly think this is sexually abusive to his own daughter – all be it totally psychological. I wonder too what Sunny’s father – a respected Doctor in Nevada thinks when he has to tell friends and family what his daughter is up to (whom he’d like nothing more than to see married with kids). Having a daughter date a man older than yourself is surely humiliating and perhaps a passive / aggressive move by Ozell against her father.
What is truly painful as one seeks clarity and responsibility is to witness those you love who are stuck in patterns and exhibiting a very public form of self destruction. Behind the “celebration” and photo-shoots I believe Ozell and Stewart are lonely and sad indeed. While I care not a wit about Stewart as he is old enough to know better, I feel sorry for Ozell who is young and in need of mature help, hopefully she seeks it out from a therapist.
Dear Gordon,
thanks for personal insights into the relationships and dynamics as well as the personality.
Yes, most people who are in relationships that have such a huge age difference are often engaging in the act of mutually using each other. Although I travel between NY, LA and Miami, I think it is most evident here in South Beach Miami – 20 yr old girls with 60 yr old men! The girl uses him for the high land glamorous ife and the man uses her for her youth and sex.
Aside of these blatantly obvious relationships based on using each other, most relationships that feature a young girl with a much older man often stem from a poor relationship between the daughter and her father. In other words, the woman or girl is subconsciously seeking a father figure. I know of one woman who at age 24 married a man 38 years older than her and divorced him. Now, they are best friends and he acts as her father (who died when she was very young.) Thus, as we see more cases of daughters being raised wihout dad, we will see also more girls dating older men – father figures. And, while our society continues to promote the obsession with physical beauty and youth, we will also see more men dating younger women. Read today’s Success Newsletter about the horrible effects of the media’s toxic messages about idealized beauty and physical perfection.
I am sure that you were hurt by what you experienced with Suzy and I hope you are free of that pain and now in a healthy symbiotic relationship full of mutual love.
All the best,
Patrick
It’s Sunny, not Suzy. But yes, to say I found the whole situation creepy is to put it mildly. I dumped her as soon as I found out for certain and its been difficult to shake off, not least because she continued to contact me to brag about the fact that she was seeing him and sending “love” songs she’d written to Stewart to me directly in addition to approaching my friends to brand me “mean” for dumping her .. a charge I will never fully understand given the actual situation, though perhaps the result of my silent reticence to go public with the reality of our breakup and her narcissistic need to take advantage of that gap.
I will add to the discussion, the issue of drug use and its ability to not only negate intimacy, but to hold one back emotionally. Both Ozell and Stewart are habitual (daily) pot smokers and I’ve learned that drug use (in any form) is a surefire way to ensure that true intimacy be avoided. All of your points on the “immature man” could also be found within one single trait – the “addict.”
If anyone wants to know if a guy or girl is immature just watch their intake of any substance. It its over the line, that need to acquire instant gratification will rear its ugly head in other forms, whether through infidelity or inability to carry the weight of responsibility when the inevitable tests of a relationship’s strength arise.
Best,
Gordon
Dear Gordon,
thanks for your insightful response.
I believe and teach that the desire to engage in drugs is motivated by the desire to escape a pain about oneself (hide from oneself) or to try and feel something (having become numb from the pain of oneself.)
Obviously, then, when one begins to use drugs, another cycle begins – worsening the original problem and adding more problems – addiction, inability to become emotionally intimate, loss of a clear sense of reality, a shift in values, and as you put it: “need to acquire instant gratification will rear its ugly head in other forms, whether through infidelity or inability to carry the weight of responsibility when the inevitable tests of a relationship’s strength arise.”
Gordon, you have been very open, so let me be open and speak my truth with compassion. What attracted you to Sunny, if you recognize her deeper pain, issues and inability to love? Why have you not let go of her – internally? Do you truly feel and believe you deserve to be treated better, to love and be loved?
If I can help, let me know. Also, consider my program on getting over it – breakups, betrayals and rejection. It also helps you to understand yourself and the other person, thus awakening to the realization at a subconscious level that it was never about you – and that as you change what you feel and believe about yourself, you will attract and be attracted to someone that loves you and accepts your love!
All the best,
Patrick
I say this from experience that immature men change but after a VERY LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time. I have been through therapy myself for years, talked to countless people, changed alot myself, tried everything. Patrick is right. Listen to him or listen to me. I know as a woman I Want to nurture and HELP my man become a better person but habits do not change over time. It takes a very long time meaning many many years. By that time you will suffer from low self esteem, which then will take you a while to rebuild. I am very mature and strong but even I couldnt change the love of my life. He is horrible. He is a cheater, a liar, a mamas boy and deceives himself. He pitys himself and yet brags about himself when is out with his friends. I have gone through HELL to help this man with his confusion but nothing will change him unless he wants to change. We are all on different journeys in this life and some people are behind because unforunately they were just not loved as much as you were.
Dear Saira,
thank you for sharing and enlightening us via your experiences. I am sorry that you had to suffer and the hell you went through as a result of this experience. Nonetheless, I particularly commend and enjoyed your closing sentence which highlights an empowering response and perception on your part:
“We are all on different journeys in this life and some people are behind because unforunately they were just not loved as much as you were. ”
Thank you for helping others with your insights!
All the best,
Patrick
Hi,
I ran across this article this morning, googling “Immature men” I am desperately at a lost right now. My very good male friend who is 22 and I’m 26 recently decided to split an apartment together. Now for background, we have been friends for three years. Never anything romantic or physical. During our friendship, I did note that he “liked me” but I always avoided his subtle advances. He is a recent college grad with an enstranged family relationship. Meaning, he’s been living with a aunt in a city where he knows no one else and basically relies on himself. I knew he was immature as far as being inexperienced in relationships but he had the potential to be a good man. Very kind and respectful to me always. Well a day before we moved into our new apartment, we became intimate for the FIRST time. I immediately didn’t regret it, but a week into the apartment, we have been fighting like 12 year olds. I told him, I hate ambiguity and needed to know what we were doing, for the sake of my sanity and he refused to open up. He accused me of being crazy and not going with the flow. And now every time, we’re out—he OBSESSIVELY flirts with every woman in his sight. His behavior is beyond hurtful. On top of that, he comes and goes. He doesn’t call or “check -in” He comes home for sex and food and gets mad if I challenge his actions. I already told him he could LEAVE. (my name is on the lease only) and then he acted hurt and betrayed. Im not trying to force his hand at a relationship, yet, you cant have your cake and eat it too. I admit, my maturity isn’t where it needs to be…but I cannot communicate with him. We went from being friends? to now not even being able to talk without clashing. He also, wants to be able to have women in the apartment, while he can’t even say whether him and I are trying to be together but feels I am controlling him. Sorry this is all over the place.
Dear AtaLost,
if this is the first time you are reading my material then let me say that I always speak my truth – with compassion.
There is no doubt that your friend is immature – in fact, he is acting like a typical male age 22, plus a few other negative qualities to throw in for good measure – namely, selfishness, braggart and callousness.
As you know from reading my article, he is not going to change – well, not right now and not until he sees a good reason to do so.
Thus, let’s talk about you. first thing you said that is a major red flag: “I knew he was immature as far as being inexperienced in relationships but he had the potential to be a good man.” You did what most women do, you fell for his potential! Wrong. Fall for who he is and who he is becoming – never for whom or what he could become.
Second red flag, never deepen or extend a relationship with someone who “likes” you but whom you don’t feel the same way – the relationship must be balanced.
Now, why did you choose to sleep with him? Convenience, loneliness, excitement of a new adventure (the apartment)? Something else, maybe?
My point is you slept with him thinking that guarantees a relationship, but, it doesn’t. Commit to each other first, then have sex; don’t have sex and then hope for commitment!
His actions are telling you he does want the cake and he wants to eat it too. In other words, he is saying to you – I just want to enjoy whatever you will give me but don’t ask me for anything in return. Why are you giving him sex and food if you are simply splitting an apartment?
You said: “I told him, I hate ambiguity and needed to know what we were doing, for the sake of my sanity and he refused to open up.” A better action would be tell him what you want; not “I will ask him what he wants and then try to change what he wants.” Tell him what you want and if he doesn’t want the same thing, respond accordingly.
Next, why are you scared to let go of him? Why are you scared to open up and say, “this is what I want” and then if decide whether or not the two of you can share an apartment. You slept with him emotionally; he slept with you physically.
Finally, you are not at a loss about what to do, you simply need the courage to do what you need to do. Maturity is also about responsibility. So, do it, take action. Get clear about what you want and since the lease is in your name, you have the power to make the decision. Stop letting him control you. Be accountable and responsible.
OK, so I said “finally” but really here is the final point: You said he was “Very kind and respectful to me always.” Well, we teach people how to treat us by the way we treat ourselves – by the boundaries and standards we place for ourselves. Treat yourself with respect. Do not allow others to control you, to decide what relationship you will or won’t have and don’t allow others to decide in every moment how you will feel today and about yourself.
If you still need help and support and to clear out the doubt you have about your own self-worth and whatever was programmed into you as a child, then consider a session with me.
All the best,
Patrick
Dr. Wanis, a very good column, thank you. Obviously I don’t know anything about Gordon, but I’m questioning, in context of the column, the maturity of his post. I dated a girl for awhile who was a scene specific celebrity in NYC. She is extremely charismatic with a large public following, and a day career/life position situation that is, in sharp contrast, mundane and anxiety ridden. Drug abuse, yes. Psychological problems, yes. Use and abuse of others, yes; while retaining uncanny passion for social justice and empathy for victims (and animals). Thing is, me, attracted to her genius and mess (and it was easily the most fun, energy filled relationship I’ve been in), after allowing myself to get emotionally sucked in, when I inevitably realized, at a point after being dumped, that I was delusional about what went on between us, I felt and often feel extraordinarily angry. It’s an immature response. I knew who she was going in, I was fooled by her intimate nature but only because I had already fooled myself. The anger was intense, all the more so because I cared greatly for and got used by her. I felt like a fool because I had been one. Gordon sounds like he’s as emotionally debased and immature in his situation as I was in mine.
The post, especially the second, sounds overly condemning with a sense of self-perceived martyrdom. I see no mention of anything positive about Sunny, only hints of sympathy, or perhaps pity, because she is so “young” (despite being over 30) and “in need of help.” No mention of her talent, which around Denver was rather legendary (albeit quite temporarily), and on local (Denver) commercial recordings I own is rather phenomenal. Instead she is *not* a jazz singer, she is a waitress, though she has sang with public success (even if this success was not commercially viable) for at least eleven years. From Gordon’s posts she would not seem to have the ability to make rational choices or decisions for herself. She is immature, narcissistic, superficial, passive-aggressive, creepy, and a drug addict (and I can’t imagine Gordon was naïve to Sunny’s public enthusiasm for pot use before getting involved). Gordon lays on negative descriptive words of Sunny while presenting a picture of his self as opposite of all of these things. Plus, he is responsible and clear, reticent to ‘go public,’ though not so reticent to spill private details of this woman’s life, by name, on a public forum. Meanwhile he reminds us at least twice that he was in power; that he was the one who dumped this girl.
I am about to finish grad school with a MA in international studies. I am very interested in male/female relationships and male patterns of dominance. I have been focusing on human trafficking and the aspects around it, prostitution, sex tourism, patriarchy. Prostitution seems to be as much about power for men as it is about sex, and this seems to extend to unhealthy relationships in general. Many men seem to seek prostitutes if they feel under-empowered in their lives or with their girlfriends or wives. I get that many of these same men seek much younger partners. But Gordon’s letter makes me feel there was a different manifestation of the same need for power in his relationship, though certainly one less lowly. Again, his response reminds me of my own, after I was humiliated, and as such, emasculated, in a relationship with a girl who was more socially powerful and less emotionally vulnerable than me.
Dr. Wanis, if this gets posted, feel free to edit it down. Though I’m being harsh, I don’t mean to be cruel to Gordon, whom I’m willing to bet is a very decent guy. I don’t know Sunny or anyone who knows her personally, nor do I have any sort of distant celebrity crush. I’ve followed her work off and on for some years because I’m a fan from a decade ago in Denver and remain in awe of her voice. Gordon’s posts drew my response because they seemed to me to be both defaming of Sunny and depictive, in both content and the act of defaming, of more subtle but still destructive male power issues.
Dear Sean,
thanks for your candid and open entry and response. We do not ever edit entries. If we feel that an entry is defamatory or entirely self-promoting, then we will simply not inlcude it.
With regards to your situation, you have presented a well-rounded and balanced story i.e. that there is good in all of us and there is also bad in all of us and we can choose in every moment which one of those two we will express. Listen to my discussion with Professor Zimbardo about the evil in all of us. Click here: http://patrickwanis.com/RadioInterviews.asp#TheEvil
You said something specific to which I would like to address:
“I knew who she was going in, I was fooled by her intimate nature but only because I had already fooled myself. The anger was intense, all the more so because I cared greatly for and got used by her. I felt like a fool because I had been one. Gordon sounds like he’s as emotionally debased and immature in his situation as I was in mine.”
It is possible that you simply fell in love with her potential (as a human – not as a star) and/or you were fortunate enough that she tore down the wall or mask just long enough that you could see into her soul, and thus see and feel her real beauty. As such you saw a person that the public often never sees. However, her own pain, self-doubt and insecurities as well as whatever wounds she carries caused her to quickly put up the mask and wall once more.
Further, ask yourself why you might have been attracted to someone that cannot love you back? Did you at first feel safe and secure because you knew that while she was more powerful than you (socially), you were more powerful than her because you were more emotionally stable than her? Were you trying to rescue her or were you simply setting yourself up for rejection? Did you feel neglected or rejected as a child?
You also mention “I have been focusing on human trafficking and the aspects around it, prostitution, sex tourism, patriarchy. Prostitution seems to be as much about power for men as it is about sex, and this seems to extend to unhealthy relationships in general. Many men seem to seek prostitutes if they feel under-empowered in their lives or with their girlfriends or wives. I get that many of these same men seek much younger partners.”
These are separate points. Yes, we live in a patriarchal society. But many women turn to prostitution on their own and almost all of them are either drug addicts or were abused as children. Men use prostitutes for various reasons such as the inability to have a girlfriend or sex, the inability to have a relationship, the inability to emotionally open up to a woman. For example, prostitutes will often tell you that they have many clients who come to them because the prostitute listens to him, gives him her full, undivided attention and makes him feel special. Listen to the interview I gave to Sally Jessy Raphael on her radio show titled “Woman is the nigger of the world”. Click here: http://patrickwanis.com/RadioInterviews.asp#WomanNg
Finally, you sound very protective of women and there is nothing wrong with this as long as you are balanced in your approach i.e. you don’t become a martyr who ignores his own needs. Were you protective of your mother?
I hope these insights help. And also please do visit my radio interviews page because you will find many interviews on the topics you mentioned of male/female relationships and male patterns of dominance. Click here: http://patrickwanis.com/RadioInterviews.asp
All the best,
Patrick
After reading your article, I think my husband is very immature and
unable to commit to a relationship. I am 58; he is 51, and we had been married for nearly 19 years. It was his second marriage and my first.
He moved out four days ago to take up with a younger woman whom he met less than eight weeks ago. He seemed fine for our first 7 years, and then began to drink heavily and smoke too much pot. From 1997-2004, he was very angry and verbally abusive. It was a hellish time.
Finally in 2004, I gave him an ultimatum. He stopped drinking and drugging that year. However, he never got serious about his recovery and did not complete AA’s 12 Steps. He continued to treat me with contempt. About two years ago, he dropped out of the marriage. All he wanted to do is play music with his three bands, and he resented having to spend any time with me.
It was relief when he announced that he’d met his “true soulmate” and was ending our marriage. I had become terribly co-dependent with him. Since 1997, he had been angry, depressed, judgmental and nasty. He used the fact that he was beaten by his father throughout his childhood as an excuse for behaving badly. I suspect he exaggerated the abuse he suffered in order to get me to feel sorry for him and take care of him. Although he didn’t physically abuse me, he passed onto me the abuse he suffered in his childhood.
Even though I held a part-time professional job for 19 years, I did all the grocery-shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry, bill-paying, pet-care, etc. He had a hissy fit whenever I asked him to take out the garbage or perform some minor home repair. I ended up doing everything because it was easier than fighting with him. The only thing he took responsiblity for was bringing in money from his big-bucks job.
I spent at least 11 years too long with him. My self-esteem is flat as road-kill. I lost myself trying to take care of and fix this 51-year-old little boy. I have to break my very long habit of focusing on him and turn my attention back to myself. I spent 20 years; a third of my life with this man, so it’s a big adjustment.
Do you have any advice for a survivor of a long marriage to an immature, self-absorbed and violent addict? I want to get past my guilt
at having stayed with him for years of abuse. I want to return to that
confident, strong and self-loving woman I was at age 40.
Susan
Dear Susan,
Thank you for sharing what is a painful story and for being so open about what you are feeling – including guilt.
I think by now, you understand that we contribute 50% to our relationships and sometimes we unkowingly become enablers to our partner/sibling/etc.
Life sometimes offers interesting but welcomed twists; it sounds like it is a blessing that he went a different way because otherwise you would have possibly stayed in this unhealthy relationship for even longer than you have.
Thus, now that he is gone, you are right: it is time to focus on you and work on you.
The first question when working with someone such as yourself who has been in an unhealthy relationship and with “an immature, self-absorbed and violent addict” is: what is it in you that lead you to believe that this is what you deserved?
He had been abused as a child but you allowed him to abuse you as an adult? Did you feel that you deserved to be hurt, abused or punished?
Guilt is about feeling that you did something wrong – but you did nothing wrong to him; you did it to yourself. Therefore, the step to forgiveness is about loving yourself – ask “why did I allow him to do this for so long? What did I feel I deserve?”
Ro become the “confident, strong and self-loving woman” that you say you want begins by admitting what it is in you that allowed you to allow him to treat you this way. Next, can you learn from this event? Of course. Can you choose a new path? Of course, you can. But are you open and willing?
Are you ready to be loved? Can you allow yourself to be loved without thinking that your only worth is serving someone and pleasing them at all costs? Can you understand that your self-worth isn’t attached to someone else’s happiness?
This is the starting point. Remembering that the freedom comes from forgiving yourself, understanding yourself and accepting yourself.
If you need more help, consider a private session with me. You can contact me to help you move through this easily and quickly: http://patrickwanis.com/PhoneConsultations.asp
My other final tip: please take time for yourself to relax your mind, body and soul. Take a vacation somewhere – away from noises to allow your mind and body to release the stress.
All the best,
Patrick
Dear Patrick,
I happen to come across your article as I was looking for some explanation about why my friend chooses to remain in what I feel certain is an emotionally-abusive relationship with an immature man (of 66; she’s 53, but acts much younger, which I think is part of the attraction for him).
She suffered through political turmoil in her childhood and teen years via a prison camp, and at a minimum was psychologically abused; my guess is that she was also sexually abused or at least ogled by the guards. But she was able to adapt to and survive the situation, so I figure that for her, adapting to and surviving a dysfunctional, toxic relationship is peanuts compared. Indeed, I think the camp experience set the tone for, among other things, a carefully-concealed low self-esteem (as well as the uncanny ability to conceal).
The relationship seems to succeed mostly by design on her part, meaning that she has cut off ties to friends (she speaks to us still but doesn’t see us unless we take the initiative); she has forgone personal interests she once had; and even tucks her professional life around this man (he, too, is a professional, but a mysogenist, and a bit of a blockhead. Do you know what I mean? Intellectual, but not bright). She seems to have re-arranged herself to suit this man’s fragile ego, and he seems only to happy to be the nucleus of the relationship. I’ve met him once or twice, and barely was grunted at, and in my non-professional opinion, his unfounded jealously over a female friend (me) is a huge red flag.
I would think that if he were as generous as a true lover should be, he would support her interests even if he didn’t share them, encourage her to have as many healthy relationships with other people as possible (if for no other reason than to know that she would have a network of people to turn to if something happened to him and he wasn’t here anymore), and just in general encourage her personal growth. Maybe I’m naive, but it just seems to me that he should understand that she had a life before he came into it, and that while there is compromise and flexibility in any relationship, he shouldn’t accept that she re-arranges herself to suit him. Even on the occasions when she has spent a few hours away from him, I strongly suspect that he is off somewhere marinating in his disapproval, and that she knows that he is doing this, which means she can’t fully enjoy herself.
Interestingly, I wouldn’t say she hides the relationship from me, but of all of our mutual friends, I am the only one who she has not invited into this 2+ years relationship (whereas other people, including bare acquaintences, know where they travel, activities they do together, which, not surprisingly, means the activities he enjoys). I think it’s because I might be the same voice of consciousness that is also in her mind, but that she tries very hard to ignore. Not that I’ve said too much to her, precisely because she hasn’t told me ANY details at all, and I want to base my argument(s) on facts, not on instinct, so that she doesn’t feel judged. But I suspect she knows that I disapprove. In fact, I once approached her about whether “someone” was bothering her (and by that, I meant abusing), because I had very good detail from her words and actions that something was up. I think she was mortified that I was able to pick up on that, and her reaction basically confirmed my suspicions. That was 2 years ago, and to this day, I don’t know any more about the relationship than I did when they first began dating.
The only thing I know to do is to continue to support her, even if that means always being the one to take the initiative at contact. Sometimes it’s something as simple as sending a recipe in a friendly e-mail, or a quick telephone call at work. There has been a time or two where I have encouraged her to do things or not do things for her own reasons, but that’s about as far as I’ve gone. Interestingly, however, I have a chance to take a promotion in the next year or two, in another city, and it is abundantly clear that she is very uncomfortable at the thought of my leaving, which tells me that while she might not like my suspicions about her relationship, those suspicions simultaneously function as safe territory somehow, although I’m not sure how “somehow” would be defined.
Based on what I have written, do you think that my non-interference (other than when I was almost certain that he was being aggressive toward her in some way or other) is the best route I can take? I realize that she is an adult, and that she is choosing this relationship, so despite my concern, my sympathy is limited. But in all fairness, I also must point out that she, too, has an abusive side – not physically, but she can be very cutting and sarcastic, and tries to be very controlling. But I accept her as she is, so I have no interest in changing her, although I do stand my ground when I need to, which I know she respects. Anyway, this is the first opportunity I have taken to seek basic guidance about the situation, and I thought an objective, remote opinion would be the best option, in terms of how girlfriends can show love and support for their girlfriends who are in dubious circumstances like unhealthy relationships with insecure, immature men.
Thank you very much for reading, and for your article. I really enjoyed it, although it’s too bad that the circumstances exist that call for such an article, if you know what I mean.
Sincerely, friend of my friend
Dear “Friend of my friend”,
I have found that romantic relationships can often result in one person cutting off a friend or at the very least reducing contact and even sharing less intimate thoughts than before. Sometimes, we need to accept this if the other person seems happy and this is their choice.
Having said that, you are obviously concerned about your friend because you seem to doubt the quality of her partner and because she has watered down her relationship with you.
The key question is: “Is your friend happy?”
If so, then the best approach might be to let it play out.
Nonetheless, you are saying that you have concerns that he is jealous, possesive and possibly even abusive.
Then, I humbly suggest you approach her and begin by asking simple questions (phone, email, facebook or in person): “How are you? How is the relationship? I wish we could spend more time together but I understand you need to give priority to your relationship. I don’t know him very well; is he treating you welll? Are you happy and do you feel special? Remember, I am always your friend and I am would love to hear more. And you know, no matter what, I am always there to support you, so you know you can share anything with me….”
Remember, if your hunch is true and she is being abused by him, but she doesn’t say anything to you, and you choose to go on the attack, then she will most likely shut down. Most people who are abused tend to protect their abuser. Read also my articles; Falling in love with abusers – http://patrickwanis.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/08/falling-in-love-with-abusers/
and
Kidnapping victim another Patty Hearst – http://patrickwanis.com/blog/index.php/2009/08/30/kidnapping-victim-another-patty-hearst/
Thus, what I am saying is for your friend to open up and share with you, she must feel safe and feel that she will be accepted and not judged. Only, if you know for a fact that she is being abused can you step in and try more assertively to help her.
Now, let’s also talk about you. Are you giving priority to yourself, to your relationships? Are you holding yourself back or allowing yourself to experience love? Sometimes, we give too much energy to what is happening in other people’s lives and we miss out or we do out to stay safe and avoid a relationship…
I hope this helps and please let me know what happens.
All the best,
Patrick
Dear Gordon -
You are the one who sounds pathetic. I don’t know any of the parties involved, but airing your relationship in this manner seems truly immature.
It seems as if she found someone more interesting.
dP